- 10 hours ago
What happens when the world sees you as "warm", but not competent? In this episode, Prof. Dr. Bertolt Meyer reveals the psychology behind disability stereotypes, how a €110,000 bionic arm changed the way strangers treated him, and how he uses SynLimb, a device that lets him control music with his body.
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00:00The classic finding is that people with disabilities are stereotyped as warm, but at the same time
00:07as incompetent.
00:08Like, you know, for example, you go to a restaurant and you order food and then the waiter has
00:13already cut it in small pieces.
00:14The arm that I'm wearing here costs 110,000 euros.
00:18The instrument that I really love working with is the analog modular synthesizer.
00:23We call it the Syn-Limb.
00:24How did it feel playing with it for the first time?
00:27I'm changing the music by thinking something.
00:35Hi everyone, I'm Vicky and this is Freaks No More, the show where we tackle myths about
00:40visible and invisible disabilities and neurodivergent brains and hopefully show you how you can
00:45be a bit more kind to people who just experience the world differently.
00:48Today we have a very special day and a very special episode.
00:51First of all, we are not in a regular studio.
00:54We are here at the Dogso Mentale Festival.
00:56And second reason is because it's a very final episode of Freaks No More actually.
01:00So no more episodes after this.
01:03So that's a bit sad.
01:04But before we get all sad, I have a brilliant guest with me today.
01:08Our guest today is someone who can teach us about the psychology of dealing with differences.
01:13He was named University Teacher of the Year in 2024.
01:15And he's a professor of psychology at the Chemnitz University of Technology.
01:19He was born with a physical disability and his experience of being uttered actually has now
01:23led him to be a researcher in diversity and stereotypes.
01:26And outside of academia, he's also a DJ and uses his prosthetic arm connected to a synthesizer
01:32to control sound and rhythm.
01:34I'm super happy to welcome Professor Dr. Bertolt Maja.
01:38Thank you so much for being here.
01:39Thank you for having me.
01:41You are now actively researching disability and stereotypes from a scientific context.
01:48But personally, how did you experience stereotypes?
01:51How was it like growing up as a disabled kid?
01:54For me, it was my, I think it was my first day at school, at elementary school.
01:59I was, yeah, how old are you?
02:01Six years old?
02:02I mean, I'm old, right?
02:03So this was in 1983, I think.
02:05So I was meeting my future classmates for the first time, and I think we were all like
02:10kind of sitting in a circle.
02:11And the teacher comes to me and places her hands on my shoulder and like, with her full
02:17authority, tells all the other kids, you know, this is Bertie and he's different.
02:21He has a disability.
02:22He only has one arm.
02:24And I mean, it came from a good place, I guess, right?
02:27I mean, she was trying to be, I don't know, sensitive, whatever.
02:30But of course, for me, it felt extremely uncomfortable.
02:34I remember, like, I really wanted to melt it to the floor.
02:36I really wanted to not be there in this moment.
02:39Have you felt that feeling ever since, I mean, as an adult?
02:43You know, for example, you go to a restaurant and you order food and then the waiter has
02:47already cut it in small pieces because they think that you can't do it yourself.
02:51I mean, so, I mean, that's, you know, that's not something terrible, right?
02:58And it comes from a place where people want to help.
03:01Any person with a visible physical disability has this experience that people treat you
03:08with pity.
03:10And pity evokes helping behavior.
03:12But this helping is always kind of, it always implies a hierarchy, it's always from top down.
03:16So, when you have these experiences, you learn that society treats you as lesser.
03:24The reason why you wrote your book, which we can see right there, is because of anger.
03:29And I wonder why anger and if that anger is somehow connected to that feeling of pity or
03:34shame that you've had to experience, like, over your lifetime.
03:38I was increasingly angry and frustrated by the lack of psychology in public discourse.
03:45And that's why I thought, you know, I'd try and write a book.
03:49We have a tremendous body of knowledge in psychology that can explain stereotyping, the polarization
03:59of society, culture wars, the rise of right-wing populism really well.
04:05And it's not part of public discourse.
04:10So as soon as somebody from the social sciences is invited to a political talk show, it's either
04:16somebody from the political sciences or, especially in Germany, you have some philosopher explaining
04:24you the world.
04:25You've written a paper in which you actually found that people with physical disabilities
04:30are perceived as warm but less competent than people who are able-bodied.
04:35Well, I didn't find that.
04:37That's the classic stereotype about people with disabilities.
04:42Typically, when in everyday language and conversation we use the word stereotype, it's almost used in
04:48an interchangeable way with prejudice and discrimination.
04:51But that's not how we use it in psychology.
04:54In psychology, a stereotype is something much more benign and basic.
05:00A stereotype is a generalized set of beliefs about the qualities that are associated with
05:08people from certain social groups.
05:11And oftentimes, these are exaggerated beliefs.
05:14Germans are punctual and old people are hard of hearing or Italians cook good pasta.
05:19You name it.
05:20The classic finding is that people with disabilities are stereotyped as warm, so in terms of they
05:28have good intentions, but at the same time as incompetent.
05:32They can't do very much.
05:34It's called the paternalistic stereotype.
05:36It's similar for old people and similar for children.
05:39Are stereotypes intrinsic to us humans?
05:42Yes.
05:42So are stereotypes good or bad?
05:45Or is there something like, can we categorize them as good or bad?
05:48Stereotypes are extremely useful for us and for our ability to process the complexity of
05:57our social environment.
05:58You know, our brain is really cheap in the sense of it tries to avoid complexity wherever
06:03it can.
06:04And stereotypes are something like a data compression algorithm of our brain.
06:10And whenever we perceive a person, immediately, and this is automatic, we categorize the person
06:16in the sense of which social categories does this person belong to.
06:21Old person, tourists, Huygen, football fan, you name it.
06:25And as soon as we do that, we assign the qualities of the category to the person.
06:33So, and that is a very, very simple and easy way to look at the world.
06:38So it's a reduction of computational power.
06:41One thing that you found also in your paper is that people actually with bionic arms, or
06:45not just arms, but bionic prosthesis, like any sort of prosthesis, are perceived as more
06:50competent.
06:51So why is that actually?
06:53What our findings show is that a prosthesis like this, not just has a functional benefit
07:00in terms of, you know, I can tie my shoelaces with it better than without it, but it also
07:05has a tremendous psychological benefit.
07:09I was born missing my lower left arm.
07:11If you have one arm less, I mean, people, it's tough, you know, I mean, imagine having only
07:17one arm and going to, you know, the swimming pool when you're 12.
07:21You know, if you really, you really need thick skin, right?
07:26You know, people stare at you, people will make fun of you, you know, kids can be cruel.
07:29So what I realized when I was going around without the prosthesis, and when I met new
07:35people or interacted with them, it was always a tad awkward, right?
07:39So now your interactions, is it less awkward and more like curiosity, like people would
07:43think like, oh, wait, what is this?
07:45Can I ask about it?
07:46The moment that technology advanced to this point where you now have, you know, fingers
07:51that completely move with like several joints and many degrees of freedom and also hands
07:58that do not come with these skin colored gloves anymore.
08:02And also, you know, so you can like rotate it like a 360 degrees until the battery is empty.
08:07It's not very useful, but it kind of shows, it goes to show that you don't need to adhere
08:11like the laws of biology here.
08:13And the moment technology was there, I noticed that people started to treat you differently.
08:20It was less awkward and it was more like a positively connotated curiosity.
08:25Like, especially, you know, if you, if you're on a, like on a, on a, on a tram, on public
08:29transport and like, it's especially kids.
08:31Wow.
08:31That's so cool.
08:33And that was...
08:34Yeah, exactly.
08:35And, and, and, and, you know, nobody's ever called me cool because of my disability.
08:41Now, what's the implication of that for people, let's say, who cannot afford a prosthesis?
08:45Don't get me wrong.
08:46I'm only describing the phenomenon and I now basically have a social psychological theory
08:55behind, you know, what happens when you strap an expensive piece of bionic technology on the
09:01disabled body of a disabled person, right?
09:04It offsets the stigma.
09:05But I'm not advocating this as, well, see, problem solved.
09:10That's the solution.
09:11Yeah.
09:11That's the solution for disability.
09:13You know, we just, we just strap expensive technology on the disabled body.
09:18Problem solved.
09:19The arm that I'm wearing here costs 110,000 euros.
09:23Right.
09:23It's insane.
09:24Behind us, we have the spinning wheel.
09:26Right.
09:26So the spinning wheel is always in our shows.
09:29I thought that it would be super cool if with you, we did some facts, some of them are true,
09:34some of them might be false.
09:36Right.
09:36That we can discuss.
09:37Spin the wheel and then we see what we land.
09:39Okay.
09:42Okay.
09:43Yellow.
09:43Stereotypes are bad.
09:45From a psychological perspective, the stereotypes aren't necessarily bad.
09:52Stereotypes can actually paint people in a very positive light.
09:56You know, some groups.
09:58Yes.
09:58In some contexts are, for example, stereotyped as, you know, very competent and so forth.
10:03Is there a way psychologically to train our brain to use less categorization or to not
10:09categorize people in certain groups?
10:11Or is it something that is ultimately evolutionarily ingrained into us?
10:17Stereotypes themselves, and maybe this might come across as controversial, are not the problem.
10:24Or are only a part of the problem that is associated with discrimination and a lack of inclusion
10:32of people with disabilities.
10:33So what is the problem?
10:34The problem is the point where stereotypes turn into behavior.
10:39When my stereotypes lead me to discriminate against you.
10:43So stereotype is just a shared, exaggerated, oversimplified belief.
10:49Period.
10:50And it turns into discrimination if this then guides my behavior towards others by, you know,
10:58discriminating against them in more or less subtle way.
11:01While stereotypes themselves seem to be difficult to change, what is more easier to change is
11:06the link between stereotypes and behavior.
11:10It's much easier to change someone's behavior than to change the stereotype.
11:17But the thing is, if the behavior changes, the stereotype will follow.
11:21I want you to spindle again and see where we land.
11:25Okay.
11:26Blue.
11:26People with physical disabilities are perceived as warmer.
11:29Yeah.
11:30And generally they are, you know, it's the, it's the nice guy in the wheelchair.
11:35It's the, you know, the sweet kid with down syndrome.
11:40That's this kind of stereotype.
11:42Yeah.
11:42It's kind of, it implies cuteness and, and, oh, good for you.
11:46And it evokes pity.
11:49And on a behavioral level, it will lead to helping, helping behavior.
11:54You're willing to help people who you perceive as warm and incompetent.
11:58And you've, uh, actually talked to us about something, about the word cyborg and how using
12:05that word or having a perception of that word cyborg can actually make people with disabilities
12:11be perceived as colder.
12:12Why is that?
12:13In one of our studies, we show that, um, people with physical disabilities who wear bionic prosthesis
12:20are perceived as much more competent than the stereotype about their group would predict.
12:28They're actually perceived almost as competent as able-bodied people.
12:31And what we wondered is, but what will happen to the attributions of warmth?
12:36So does the increase in competence that I get by wearing a prosthesis like this, does that
12:43come with a price tag?
12:45And that is, do I have to pay for it with my perception of warmth?
12:50In the sense, okay, I'll come across as more competent, but maybe I'll come across as
12:54colder.
12:55I wanted to ask you about what you've brought here.
12:57Yeah, speaking of the cyborg, yeah, it's a good transition.
13:00Because, yeah, speaking of the cyborg, um, you are also a DJ and outside of academia and
13:06outside of all the research that you just talked about and all the papers that you've
13:09done, you're also a DJ, uh, and you, what you do is like, you connect your arm with
13:15a synthesizer.
13:16The instrument that I really love working with when I find the time to make music is the,
13:22um, analog modular synthesizer.
13:24And I've, I've, which is basically an instrument that you build yourself.
13:28And I've brought a tiny, a tiny part of the large amount of technology I have floating
13:34around at home.
13:35So basically, I mean, imagine something that looks like this, but just looks very, very
13:40much bigger.
13:40Yeah.
13:41And so you see, it's these tiny buttons here that you need to tweak, like potentiometers,
13:47right?
13:47You need to, basically, you need to be able to do this kind of movement with it.
13:50You know, if you can operate these with two hands, that's kind of nice.
13:55And I really can't.
13:56And it's really difficult to like turn a knob like this with a prosthesis like this.
14:01Like even if you get it into a mode where only two fingers move like this and it's,
14:05it's really difficult to kind of grab it and turn it.
14:08It doesn't really work that well.
14:09So can't I just basically take a cable, plug it in here like this and then take the other
14:16end and you know, where is it?
14:19Here.
14:20And basically like kind of plug it in here so that I can use the signals that I'm already
14:24producing and that I'm really good at producing to send it in there.
14:28So, and that's basically what we did.
14:30We call it the sin limb.
14:33And so what this does is if I pop it on, so if I swap out my hand for this
14:39and it will
14:40convert the signals that the prosthesis picks up from the arm to control the hand and converts
14:48it into an electrical signal that the synthesizer will understand.
14:52And how did it feel playing with it for the first time?
14:55That's what I want to know.
14:56Kind of difficult to describe how it feels, but I can like the only thing I can say about
14:59the first time when we got it working, it's like you're a kid in a candy shop.
15:04Because seriously, to me, it feels like I'm changing the music by thinking something.
15:13Right?
15:14I'm thinking I want to open my hand and then the music changes in a way that depends on
15:19where you put this.
15:21It's amazing.
15:22I mean, we don't have like a musical rig here, but I mean, for the sake of purpose, just
15:26to demonstrate what it looks like.
15:28So basically you could pop this on and then you switch it on and now the little computer
15:38that's in the prosthesis is confused because it realizes that's not the hand that it typically
15:43expects.
15:44And then you can plug it in, in a synth.
15:45And then now if you take the cable and plug that in here, I hope I'm grounded properly.
15:51Right.
15:52And then now that signal goes in there.
15:55And then if this is a working synth, depending on where you plug this, and this can be like
15:59a filter or a sequencer or an effect module.
16:03So what's the future of it?
16:04I mean, do you hope that maybe you will make it available for more people in the future?
16:08The idea is to make this open source in the sense of that people can just download the
16:13specs, find the parts on the internet, download the 3D parts for their 3D printer and build
16:18it themselves.
16:18We talked so much about stereotypes.
16:21What can we do actually, as a society, to have a little bit less prejudice, really?
16:27Unfortunately, there is not a simple answer to that because if there were, we would have
16:32already implemented it.
16:34First of all, we need a compelling narrative, a vision, a story of a better society.
16:42We need to paint a picture of a future society that will allow for more people and for more
16:53groups of people to realize their idea of a good life.
16:58That and good old fashioned solidarity.
17:00This idea that the stronger shoulders carry more weight than the weak shoulders.
17:06And if you manage to fuse these two ideas, basically this idea of a better pluralism for
17:12the future with a strong touch of solidarity, you know, I think it turned into something
17:19where people think, okay, I might have not fully understood it in its last intellectual detail,
17:23but it sounds like something worth fighting for.
17:26We need a political vision and a political class and a political communication that communicates
17:36safety.
17:37And I'm not safe, not safety in the sense of more policemen on the street and less crime,
17:42but safety in the sense of psychological safety.
17:45And psychological safety is a core construct, which means I feel like I belong and I feel
17:50like I can be myself without being taken advantage of.
17:55So to summarize, we need solidarity.
17:58We need to feel psychologically safe and to feel like we belong.
18:03Yes.
18:03And we need to have the belief for a better future.
18:07And I think that's probably like one of the most important things.
18:09We need to have a belief for a better future that we all are collectively responsible for.
18:14Yeah.
18:15So thank you.
18:15I think on that note, we can finish.
18:17And thank you so much for being here, Bertolt.
18:19And thank you so much for showing us the synthesizer, showing us Synlamp here.
18:23And thank you to you guys, because you are actually our very last audience.
18:26It's a very final episode of Freaks No More, and I'm quite sad to leave this project.
18:32It's been my passion project for a long time, and it's been a great privilege to be the host of
18:36this show.
18:37So thank you.
18:38I'm Vicky.
18:39I'm your host.
18:40And for the last time, I always sign off on this.
18:43Goodbye.
18:44And remember, be kind, be patient, and be understanding.
18:48So thank you so much, Bertolt, for being here.
18:50And thank you so much for you being here.
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