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Corruption is more visible than ever before. But does greater awareness lead to greater accountability or are we becoming increasingly numb to it? Join us for the latest edition of the AWANI Talk Series as we explore the impact of the digital age on corruption.
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00:06Hello everyone, I'm Amroul Ayman and you're watching the Awani Talk series and today we're
00:11discussing a topic that has become increasingly difficult to ignore. Whether through social media,
00:18news reports, leaked documents or viral videos, Malaysians are constantly exposed to stories
00:23involving corruption, abuse of power and questions of accountability. In many ways, corruption
00:30has never been more visible today, information travels faster, public scrutiny is more immediate
00:37and conversation unfolds in real time. Yet despite this unprecedented visibility, many questions
00:43remained. Does greater exposure lead to greater accountability? Are citizens becoming more engaged
00:50or more fatigued or does constant exposure risk creating cynicism and creating a sense
00:57that little ever changes? There are some issues that we'll be discussing today. This session
01:03is organised in collaboration with the Alliance Centre for Governance, University of Malaya
01:08and we are delighted to have with us three distinguished panellists. Prof. Zaharom Nain, a young professor
01:16at University of Malaya whose work focuses on media, communications and the relationship
01:21between society, politics and public discourse. And of course, name familiar with Institutional
01:28Reform, Aira Zahari, CEO of Ideas where she works extensively on governance, public policy and
01:35institutional reform. And also, last but not least, Datuk Sri Dr. Akbar Sattah is a leading anti-corruption
01:41expert, criminologist and currently serving as professor and director at the Institute of
01:46Criminology and Criminal Justice at Health University. Thank you all, my panellists, for joining us
01:52today in this discussion. Now, without further ado, let's start with Prof. Zaharom first. Let me start
01:57with you. Simple question. How has social media changed the way Malaysians understand and discuss
02:03corruption, Prof? Prof. Zaharom Nain, I find it difficult trying to look at this question just as though it's
02:09it moved from one to the other. Social media changed a lot of things. I think one has to
02:13historicize the situation in the context of Malaysia, the context of the world, the whole notion of
02:20corruption itself, right? I don't think that social media has revolutionized anything. Social media has
02:28perhaps provided more access or more exposure to some of these things. But at the end of the day,
02:35I think if we depend too much on the technology, we forget that many of these things require human
02:41will, political will especially, right? And that this has been going on for quite a number of years,
02:48you know, corruption, the whole notion of corruption. That's another area. How do you define corruption in
02:54this kind of sense? Many of us think in terms of, you know, corruption being giving something and getting
02:59something back in return, you know, how you pay off certain individuals and get that kind of stuff.
03:04But it's, to me, it's much, much wider than, it's a wider environment that essentially allows that to
03:11happen. And I think if you're asking whether social media has changed things, I think one has to say to
03:17us, what are these things that we're talking about in the first place, right? And if you look at the
03:23whole history of the development of corrupt practices, a corrupt environment, you know, you
03:30will see that this has been happening for quite a bit. The studies would have shown that. It has just
03:35been, you know, exposed to a wider degree now with social media. I don't think many people, although
03:41there's exposure to social media, the problem with social media is that it provides, it doesn't provide
03:45analysis most of the time, yeah. It might amplify certain things. It works on your emotions, yeah,
03:53as you've seen. And I think there is a need to be careful about saying that, you know, social media
04:00change things. The environment itself, I don't think it's changed. There's been talk after 2018 and
04:06then again after 2022 that essentially, you know, reformist government will change things. But I think
04:14really, I mean, we can talk about this a bit as we go further, but if you look at the
04:18DNAs, if you look
04:20at the various things that get through, I don't think that has changed very much. As a consequence,
04:26I don't know, in terms of Malaysians, I think most study has got to be done on those, and I
04:32think
04:32Ideas has done some good stuff on that. There are Malaysians who might feel, what's the word for it,
04:40what you were saying just now, are fatigued about what's happened, and many do feel fatigued.
04:46There's also a sense of helplessness, yeah, that we know that's there, but we don't seem to know how
04:51to overcome things, primarily because those who are supposed to be leading the show, so to speak,
04:57leading the fight, are not, evidently, are not leading the fight, yeah.
05:03We see little changes on the ground happening in terms of enforcement against corruption. We have
05:08to ask questions that, has greater visibility actually changed the fight against corruption
05:12itself? And I think this question goes to you, Dr. Sri. From your perspective, has the visibility
05:18changed the fight against corruption, if at all?
05:21So, prior to the MACC established in 2009, I was with ACA, right, before that, the arrest was only
05:32290, you know, per year. But after the MACC Act 2009 was enforced, so the number of arrests increased to
05:422,000. The most important point here is that if you look at the overall arrest, 60% of the
05:48givers and
05:49receivers are government servants. Ah, this is the issue. And the other area that you should look,
05:56which is I'm quite sad, that your generation, more than 50% arrested by MACC from 2019 to 2015 were
06:07youth at the age of 29 to 39. So, this is very sad because I thought my generation already, you
06:15know,
06:16cannot be, you know, depend on. So, we are hoping on the new generation. But it looks like that
06:23corruption is more rampant in this era. Based on criminological theory, normally, you youngsters
06:33always, crime is learned. So, normally, you learn from us, right? So, you can see that in this country,
06:39when number one or minister or prime minister or whatever it is, who are involved in corruption,
06:45so, they will be highly likely that we will follow the footsteps. So, this is a problem. So,
06:51in this country, I think the best part in order to prevent corruption is, number one, to make sure
06:57that we have a sincere, sincere political will. So, sometimes, you have a strong, sorry, sincere,
07:05strong political will. But you have strong political will alone, it's not enough. Sometimes,
07:10you know, you don't walk the talk. Number two, the effectiveness of the law enforcement agency.
07:17You can see, MACC is very active. It is one of the, not say effective, most powerful agency in the
07:25world,
07:26where two or three, or two, two prime ministers have been arrested and one defeated prime minister.
07:31So, and then, the third point will be the cooperation from the public. So, sometimes, I think public also,
07:42same as far as I'm concerned about social media, right? I know that social media are very important,
07:47but whatever you send in the social media, whatever you publish, but the information are not that
07:55too relevant, too enough for MACC to act. But it is good for them to use, to handle by their
08:05intelligence
08:05officer to add in all the information. Because good information means what? One, you must have
08:10name. Number two, offense. Number three, maybe date and so on. You know, sometimes, we have a general
08:20information that you publish, that will not have a lot. So, I was with the anti-corruption before.
08:26I was the in charge of filtering the information, right? Our time, maybe we receive about
08:34four or five thousand per year, right? But now, of course, they receive sixty thousand per year, right?
08:38So, that time, we try to filter and see. So, most of the question, most of the letter sent are
08:48sometimes not relevant to corruption. So, I think it's a high time for the law enforcement, the MACC,
08:55at least to let the public know actually what you really want. 2015 to 2020,
09:06out of six thousand arrests by MACC, right? 4,896 are a world bridegiver. But out of this 4896
09:23bridegiver, 60.6% were public servant and 22.5% were private sector. So, that is bride taker.
09:33For bridegiver, out of 1,689 cases, 62.8% were general public. 30.3% were public sector. So,
09:47I think looking at this scenario, I find that corruption is rampant in this country, right?
09:54You can see that all the chief MACC officer, three or four of them, when they pass a remark,
10:00they say this country is very serious in corruption. So, I think, again, when you talk about social media,
10:08we hope that, of course, if possible, we are hoping that we have to create more investigative journalism.
10:19I think that will be good, right? You can see Panama Papers and so on. They are the one that
10:24who
10:30explored and also reported the cases, right? Until they found. In fact, some politicians in this country
10:37also, you know, were in the list. So, I think maybe this investigative journalism should be
10:49encouraged and also, especially in the university, right? Make sure that we have a special course on this,
10:59especially the reporter. I think you need, if you compare reporter, right, with this investigative
11:06journalist, I think it's a bit different because investigative journalists, normally, you dig
11:12and dig more information before you expose to the law enforcement. The main problem in this country
11:20because of the whistleblower, right? Before this, I think, now they allow you, even the cases on OSA,
11:28so if you expose, they still protect you under the whistleblower act. But I think before that,
11:36I think it's quite a big problem. But for MACC, they have their own reason. Why do they
11:41do not allow you to expose freely? Because normally, number one, you want to make sure that the witnesses
11:48will not run away. Number two, sometimes, you know, all this caprit will take the money, you know,
11:56away. And so, I think they have their own reason to do that. So, I think that will be my
12:03initial.
12:05Okay. Thank you so much, Dato. An interesting point that you made just now, earlier,
12:11when you speak about corruption, where it's alarming number of Gen Z or the younger generation or the
12:17youth involved in corruption. And I think it's very related to today's topic because we were talking
12:21about viral era and digital media as well, which leads me to the next question to Aira, which is
12:29digital age, increased visibility. And, of course, when you talk about digital media,
12:34it's very closely related to the younger generations. We always scroll, scroll, scroll,
12:39and we see a lot of corruption cases out there. It also creates these kind of like expectations from
12:46the public to ensure that, okay, you know, tank up this guy, you know, quickly, you know. So,
12:51do you think that this has changed the expectations from public institutions? And also, do you think
12:59institutions nowadays are able to keep up with those changing expectations?
13:04Thanks, Amiro. Yeah, I think this is an important question. So, firstly, social media or what is being
13:14expressed on social media in terms of the expectations on MACC or all of our public institutions,
13:22I believe that that is a reaction to something, right? So, I think that this kind of discourse
13:33expectations is reacting to the fact that there is very low trust in our institutions, our public
13:40institutions in the first place. So, from IDEA's perspective, I mean, we have looked at things like
13:48the independence of the Attorney General's Office, how do we increase independence of the MACC,
13:56and, of course, the separation of the Attorney General and the public prosecutor is a constitutional
14:02amendment that is hopefully going to be tabled on the 22nd of June, and, you know,
14:09it's one of the two key constitutional amendments that the government, I'm sure, wants to pass in this
14:16parliamentary session before they go to elections, hopefully. But going back to my earlier point,
14:24when trust in institutions is low in the first place, I think that exacerbates the discourse or the,
14:32you know, sometimes quite unhealthy expectations that the public has on MACC and all the other institutions,
14:42like the election commission, for example, is also another one that will come into scrutiny,
14:47I'm sure, pretty soon with elections coming. And, look, this is a problem that is being faced by all institutions
14:54in
14:54every country in the world. So, the proliferation of social media, and in Malaysia, it's not just the
15:01traditional social media like Facebook, X or TikTok, it's also WhatsApp, right? So, I'm sure all of us
15:07have gotten WhatsApp, forwarded WhatsApp messages of leaked letters and leaked screenshots and so on,
15:15voice notes and all of that. So, I think the core point I'm trying to make here is that
15:22when trust in institutions is eroded, that makes that problem worse. And as a society or as a country,
15:31we can't stop people from using social media. In fact, I think, you know, social media has,
15:38of course, democratized knowledge and has made it much, much easier for just any man on the street to
15:45find information to discuss things, to find out, oh, how is it that the, how is the MACC Chief
15:54Commissioner appointed, for example. So, and I would always, for me, the benefit of the doubt would
16:01always be on the public for me because the, if at the very top, if the institutions are not, are
16:11compromised,
16:12then we can't really blame the public in a situation like in Malaysia where, especially post-2018, I think,
16:20civil liberties and the kind of, the empowerment that the public have felt in terms of holding the
16:29institutions to account, holding politicians to account, has greatly increased. And that's not going to
16:34change. I think that's going to be even, that's going to exacerbate further. That makes it sound bad.
16:42But maybe I would say, I think the empowerment that the public feels will only be increased, I think,
16:49because, again, technology, you cannot stop technology. And also, with the increasing number of
16:56young people entering, being able to vote and also entering politics, that discourse will only
17:06get more vibrant, I would say. So, it is really on our institutions and the people that we elect into
17:15power to ensure that those institutions are trusted. And it's a long journey, right? So, of course,
17:21ideas is paying very close attention to the AGPP constitutional amendment, because that really is key
17:30to ensuring that the fight against corruption is fair, but also perceived to be fair and just by the
17:40public. And that's so important. I have to say that the process in which the constitutional amendment is
17:48being, is being tabled. I think there's, it's good that there was a special parliamentary committee that
17:55was formed by the minister in the prime minister's department, that was Sri Azalina. And there has been
18:01some involvement also by civil society to some degree. It's not the best, but we'll see on the 22nd of
18:08June.
18:08And secondly, I think it's very difficult to expect the public, to expect young people to
18:17not engage in these issues in social media, on WhatsApp. Again, when there is such a glaring
18:27issue or glaring problem with when, you know, all of us here, this is all public information, right? The
18:33issue about Tan Sri Azam Baki and the issue at the very top of the MACC itself. So, and when
18:41there
18:42is no kind of like, I guess, public space that can be discussed. So, of course, people will take that
18:49discussion online on social media where you can be anonymous, where you can be, you can get away with
18:56saying things that maybe you can't get away with in person. So, I think I will just conclude with that
19:03point that trust in institutions is paramount and you need to work on that instead of thinking about
19:12how to stop people chattering about it on social media.
19:16Can I add?
19:18Yeah, sure, sure.
19:19See, the most important now, we are talking about structural governance and the human governance.
19:25I think the most important will be human governance because I think we are always talking about
19:30structural. Structural, I think we are okay. You see, the Anti-Corruption Act 1961, together with
19:36Singapore, we came up with that law. Singapore until now said they don't change the law, but we have changed
19:41two times.
19:42But you see, corruption here from bad to worse, right? The law is there, it's okay. It's the people.
19:48The people, you know. MSCC is so powerful, you know. Mana ada, where God in this world where
19:56two prime ministers and a deputy minister and so many ministers have been arrested, right? So powerful, but
20:02the process after that is a different issue, right? But so powerful, right? So, therefore, I think we must be
20:11assure here that, make sure that whatever you want to appoint, especially this all important
20:17institution like MSCC, make sure you get the best people, right? Sometimes you get the best by, you get the
20:23best law, the best institution, but if you elect somebody which is, which have no courage and have some
20:31political agenda, there's no point. It's the people, right? It's the people. Same thing as AG also, right?
20:37Now we have one AG, now we are going to have another one. Maybe one is the, one will be
20:44prosecutor, the other one will be the advisor to the government, right? Of course, this will be good,
20:50but if you appoint the wrong person, it's no point. It's the people, right? All the people. We are facing
20:56integrity crisis, right? Whatever post you have, it is all for your self-interest, not for the country.
21:02You just name one minister that who are, who, who, who, who are saying that I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm holding
21:09this post is for you, right? It's not, no. The first will be for him and for his family. The
21:14third point
21:15will be maybe for us, right? Or the economy. So I think this is very important for us to see,
21:21even, even,
21:22you can see that, even after that, after, after, after MACC, I mean, we call criminal justice system,
21:32MACC, AG, AG also, you see, the most powerful person in the world. So section 1, 1, 4, 5, 1,
21:405, 4,
21:40right? Which is the, he can prosecute, he can, he, he can just release you and, and so on, right?
21:48So
21:48powerful. And if you miss, if you, if you, if you put somebody that has no integrity, therefore,
21:56I think it will go on case. But as a government, I'm sure they'll put somebody who are pro you,
22:01right? Because he can just let MACC arrest you and he will charge you, correct? MACC, so today,
22:07he can, he can, he can even go and arrest the Prime Minister. But of course, by, by tomorrow,
22:14he'll be, he'll be, he'll be, he'll be chunk off, right? But of course, I think if you look at
22:20this,
22:21the power is already there. But the problem is the people, right? Same thing. You, if you look at
22:26procurement, same story, right? We come up with e-procurement digital, right? But at the end of the day,
22:32who, who received the document? They are people. They just pull one document. Therefore,
22:39I think you will not get the, the, the, the contract, right? And if you compare other countries,
22:46you talk about the procurement, not only they have committee for finance, committee for technical,
22:54and also the main board. But they add an extra one. It is called the, they call oversight committee.
23:01But in Malaysia, I don't think you can, of course, oversight committee will consist of people with
23:05integrity. But in Malaysia, I don't think you can do that because they will choose all their
23:08colony. So this is a problem. We are facing integrity crisis. Thank you.
23:12Right. Thank you so much, Dato. It reminds me of what, what my professor-in-law said. We have all
23:17the
23:17criminal laws in the world. We have all the best criminal laws in Malaysia as well, but there's still
23:21criminals out there because the law is just only there to deter, but the society also plays an
23:26important role. And also, Ira, you mentioned an interesting point where there's more visibility,
23:31but also there's low trust in public as well when it comes to enforcement agency and all,
23:36which I will get back to you on that. But we've spoken about visibility and changing expectations
23:42in the first round. But visibility as well alone doesn't tell us how people are actually responding
23:48behind those numbers, this engagement. Professor Harum, what effect does exposure to corruption
23:55related content have on public attitudes over time? I think you mentioned before fatigue.
24:00But also, how do we distinguish between a society that is becoming more aware and one that is
24:06becoming increasingly cynical about corruption?
24:10I think focusing too much on media, whether it's social media or the old media, and the impact of
24:22that media on people's perceptions of things, which I think is what we are drifting towards, is problematic.
24:30Because I think if you want to look at people's perceptions, people's understanding of issues like corruption,
24:36one has to go back and on a continuous basis, look at the whole process of socialization,
24:43of Malaysians, of society generally. The socialization is just not the socialization provided by media images,
24:51media messages, and so on and so forth. That socialization comes from a whole process of
24:56growing up in an education system, growing up in a religious system, growing up in an overall system,
25:04that essentially either makes you question the validity, the legitimacy,
25:11the halalness of what's happening, or not. And I think, unfortunately, in the context of Malaysia,
25:18if you look at our whole education system, we can talk about introducing, as the government has introduced,
25:25anti-corruption sort of courses at the first year level, at the university level, and so on and so forth.
25:30But I think, to some extent, that's a little bit too late, too little too late. The whole process has
25:37got to begin from school. You have to be engaged in the idea that what is wrong is wrong, and
25:46therefore that
25:46needs to be made better or made right. And I think, unfortunately, that's not been the case in the
25:54context of our education system. And I think, in that kind of sense, we have to go back to our
25:58education
25:59system, locate where we can bring in stuff that are essentially central to the development of the
26:08human psyche. And so, like you said, you're asking me, what effects? Again, the whole notion of effects
26:17is problematic. Are we talking about psychological effects? Are we talking about sociological effects?
26:21Are we talking about immediate effects? And when we're talking about effects, are we talking about
26:25effects of changes in perspective, changes in behaviour, or reinforcement of particular ideas?
26:31So all these things can be quite complicated if we look at the whole history of media effects,
26:36and the studies of media effects. And often, it leads to nowhere, because we're focusing too much
26:43on the media, whether it's social media. For many of us, it's a new phenomenon. It reveals so many
26:50things about our society that, unfortunately, have been there for a long, long time. Unfortunately,
26:56our awareness of what's happening there has been stifled in many ways because of the whole education
27:02system, which, again, is linked to the power structures in Malaysian society, as in any society.
27:07So I think at the core of it all, there's a whole question of power. That's what Sri was talking
27:12about how the power is there. But whether the power is exercised is another thing altogether.
27:18And when it's not exercised, then you have to ask questions about the whole politicisation
27:22of the whole notion of corruption, for example. Why certain... You can have statistics that show
27:28it has been increasing, as Sri has shown this now, which is true. But who are the people that are
27:34being attacked? Who are the people that are being arrested? Who are the people that are
27:38that are essentially... We blame it on youth. Are these small cases?
27:44There are varieties of cases. And I think it's very, very blatant for many of us that the bigger
27:50cases, the DNAs, for example, the reduction of the former Prime Minister's sentencing,
27:57things like that don't seem right for many of us. Why? I mean, that's our money that's been
28:04essentially taken away. Why are we letting these people go, Brad? And that brings us to the whole
28:11question about power structures in Malaysian society, as in other society. And I think as long
28:16as you don't address that, you're not going to address any real corruption, anti-corruption efforts.
28:22I would like to thank all our panelists for your thoughtful discussions and engaging discussions
28:28as well. And I think above all, today's conversation reminds us that corruption is not simply a question
28:33of exposure. Awareness matters, like Prof mentioned, transparency matters as well. But ultimately,
28:39the real task is whether awareness can be translated into accountability and also from public trust as
28:46well. As citizens and institutions, policymakers continue to navigate an increasingly connected
28:53world. The challenge remains as important as ever. And you'll be watching Awani Talk series. Thank you for
28:59joining us and have a good day.
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