00:00www.mesmerism.info
00:08Joining me on 12 Minutes this week
00:10at the Brussels Economic Security Forum
00:12is US Ambassador to the EU
00:13Andrew Pudzer. Ambassador,
00:16you're very welcome. Thanks for joining us on Euronews.
00:17Pleasure to be here. Thank you.
00:18Earlier this week, the European Commission
00:21unveiled what it calls a tech
00:23sovereignty package. And the idea
00:25is to remove
00:27dependencies on tech companies
00:29in China and the United States
00:31in an effort to basically shore up
00:34European security.
00:35What's your reaction to that?
00:36Because the Europeans say this is necessary.
00:38Well, it's a very thick bill
00:40and I have not had a chance
00:41to look through it very thoroughly.
00:43But I hope that this tech sovereignty
00:47doesn't drive a wedge
00:49between the United States and Europe
00:51in the tech area
00:52because I think that it's very important
00:54that they stay united,
00:55that we partner with Europe.
00:57We've now got a,
00:58hopefully by the end of this month,
01:00we'll have a trade agreement.
01:02We've got Paxilica,
01:03which is an effort to involve our allies,
01:07including the European Union,
01:09in the chip industry,
01:11in our supply chains
01:12and in artificial intelligence generally.
01:14We've got a critical minerals
01:15memorandum of understanding
01:17so we can try and maybe ring fence
01:19some economies so that we're not
01:22subject to economic coercion
01:24when it comes to these rare earth minerals.
01:25Europe is behind in the AI race.
01:28They're way behind China
01:29and China is behind the United States.
01:32They're not going to catch up.
01:33So I think the more they separate
01:35from the U.S. AI hardware stack,
01:37which is important
01:38if you're going to be in the AI economy,
01:40the more they separate themselves from that,
01:42the more negative it's going to be.
01:43So I'm hoping it'll be more of a partnership
01:45and less of a competition.
01:47But the EU would say,
01:49well, we're too reliant on the United States
01:51for financial services
01:52as well as digital services.
01:54And one example that has come up
01:55over the past few months
01:56is the U.S. sanctions on judges
01:58at the International Criminal Court,
02:00where those judges who live in The Hague,
02:02in a European country,
02:03can no longer use their Microsoft accounts
02:06and can no longer use U.S. credit cards
02:08or credit cards that everybody else has.
02:10So they feel that's not right,
02:12but also they shouldn't be relying on the U.S.
02:14for supplying these services.
02:17We definitely have disagreements
02:19with these particular judges
02:22and the way that they've dealt
02:24with international law
02:25and American companies,
02:27American individuals,
02:28as well as other people around the globe.
02:31But this is a small part
02:34of what's involved in a massive relationship,
02:39a cross-continental relationship
02:41that's very, very intertwined.
02:43You really can't break it up.
02:46You can't remove it.
02:47You can't...
02:48Europe is far enough behind
02:51the United States and China
02:52that it really can't catch up.
02:54So I don't know that separating off
02:56is going to solve the problems
02:57they're trying to solve.
02:58But the point I suppose they're making
03:00is that they need to be independent
03:02to protect themselves
03:03from a sovereign perspective.
03:05But also there are concerns
03:06because of the last year or so
03:08with the Trump administration
03:09the Europeans feel slightly under threat
03:12or slightly coerced.
03:13If you look at maybe the trade deal
03:16that was agreed in Turnberry
03:17just at the end of last summer
03:19that there was a 15% tariff rate
03:21imposed on the Europeans.
03:23It wasn't much of a negotiation.
03:24You have also the Greenland issue.
03:27So the Europeans feel now is the time
03:29not to decouple
03:30but to at least de-risk
03:32from the United States as well as China.
03:34So with the trade agreement,
03:35the trade agreement is an effort
03:38that President von der Leyen
03:39and President Trump mutually negotiated
03:41to try and rebalance
03:43a very unbalanced trade relationship.
03:45Our largest trade deficit in the world
03:46is with the European Union.
03:48Now it is the largest trade relationship
03:50in the world
03:51but for years you would pay
03:53a 10% tariff to sell a Cadillac in Berlin
03:56but you'd only pay a 2.5% tariff
03:58to sell a Mercedes-Benz in Detroit.
04:01And nobody in Europe seemed to be complaining
04:03about the imbalance at that point in time.
04:05It's only now that we're trying
04:06to rebalance the relationship
04:07that that inequity created
04:09that people are complaining.
04:10The 50% tariff you mentioned
04:12is on steel and aluminum
04:14and I will also point out
04:15that Europe has a 50% tariff
04:17on steel and aluminum.
04:18The idea of those tariffs
04:19is both to keep out subsidized product
04:24from China
04:25where they're selling steel and aluminum
04:28at prices that really nobody in the world
04:31can compete with
04:32because they're subsidized
04:33by the Chinese government.
04:35So Europe is doing the same thing
04:36on steel and aluminum
04:38that the United States is.
04:39On Greenland,
04:40what the President said
04:41was he wouldn't take any options
04:42off the table.
04:43Greenland is a very strategically important issue
04:46for the United States.
04:47It's important for Europe.
04:48I don't think really a year ago
04:50if we had this discussion
04:51people would be as aware
04:52of how strategically important Greenland is.
04:55So it's important for the United States.
04:57It's important for Europe.
04:58and it's important
05:00that people understand
05:01that this is an area of the country,
05:02area of the world
05:03where China and Russia
05:05will try and take advantage.
05:07And I think they're
05:08a little more nervous
05:08about how the United States
05:10would react
05:10than they are about
05:11how Denmark would react.
05:12So would you,
05:12can you say then
05:13that Denmark has nothing
05:14to worry about?
05:15Because we did also see
05:16the Prime Minister of Greenland
05:17saying that the U.S. envoy
05:19to nuke
05:20pretty much had the same intentions
05:22as Donald Trump said
05:23he did back in January.
05:24Marco Rubio said
05:25Greenland's part of Denmark for now.
05:27So it seems to be
05:28a little bit more
05:28than highlighting
05:29the security threat
05:31from Russia and China
05:32in the high north
05:32and the Arctic.
05:33Well, but it did highlight
05:35the security threat.
05:36I think that's the important point here.
05:37Whether or not
05:38the United States
05:38becomes more involved
05:39and the extent to which
05:40we become more involved
05:42will in fact be decided
05:43by the President,
05:44Secretary Rubio,
05:45not by me.
05:46But I think it's important
05:47we understand
05:47that it's important
05:48that the United States
05:49be involved
05:50and remain involved
05:52in Greenland.
05:53and I think it's
05:53I think Europe
05:55has now realized
05:55that it needs to step up
05:57its defense
05:58and its position
05:59with respect to Greenland.
06:00So I think we're headed
06:01in the right direction.
06:02Where it ends up
06:04that'll be,
06:04as I said,
06:05up to the President
06:05and the Secretary of State.
06:07We've seen
06:08President Zelensky of Ukraine
06:09taking,
06:10I suppose,
06:11the mantle
06:11into his own hands
06:12about trying to end
06:14the Russian invasion
06:15of his country
06:16where he wrote
06:17a letter personally
06:18for President Putin
06:19saying that he would
06:21like to meet him.
06:21Do you think
06:22this is a good idea
06:22that the Ukrainians
06:23are going to try
06:24to take control
06:25of the situation
06:26and the Europeans
06:26maybe?
06:27Because obviously
06:27the U.S.
06:28is very busy
06:29dealing with
06:30the Strait of Wormos.
06:31So the extent
06:33to which the President
06:34or Secretary Rubio
06:35are involved
06:36in the peace negotiations
06:37with Ukraine
06:39is obviously something
06:40that's in the discretion
06:42of the President.
06:43I think he's been
06:43very open
06:45that he wants
06:46to see this war end.
06:47I think it's been
06:48a great frustration
06:49to him
06:49that he hasn't
06:50been able
06:50to bring about
06:51an end to the war.
06:52I have not talked
06:53to him about it
06:54but I'd be very surprised
06:55if he objected
06:56to Putin
06:57and Zelensky talking
06:58particularly if it ended up
07:00with a resolution
07:00to this conflict.
07:01I think the Ukrainian people
07:03have lasted here
07:04much longer
07:04than anybody thought
07:05they were going to last.
07:06I think a lot of people
07:07thought they maybe
07:08wouldn't make it
07:09a couple weeks
07:09and I think we're
07:10in year five.
07:12So they've been
07:13incredibly resilient
07:14and I hope
07:15they bring about
07:15an end to the war.
07:16I think it's important
07:17to everybody.
07:17One of the concerns
07:18that Europe has
07:19is that the Americans
07:21are moving away
07:23from the security
07:24architecture
07:25of the European continent
07:25which of course
07:26the Europeans are saying
07:27this is about time
07:28we need to step up
07:29we need to start
07:30paying five percent
07:30and so on
07:31but there's a real fear
07:34that that also means
07:35in times of war
07:37that maybe our allies
07:38won't be there for them
07:39when you look at
07:39the sort of
07:40NATO force model
07:40and the reduction
07:41of the capabilities
07:42that are existing there.
07:43Do you think America
07:44is turning away
07:45from the Europe?
07:46Well I think America
07:47is refocusing
07:49some of its energies
07:50and resources
07:51on dealing with Asia
07:53which is
07:54we have a competitor
07:56in China
07:57that really requires
07:58that we refocus
07:59how we allocate
08:00our resources
08:01and there's certainly
08:02nothing wrong
08:03with asking Europe
08:04to step up
08:04and take care of itself
08:05but look
08:06America came
08:07to the defense
08:08of Europe twice
08:08in the last century
08:09we defended Europe
08:11throughout the Cold War
08:12and actually have defended
08:13them since the fall
08:14of the Berlin Wall
08:15and the end of the Cold War
08:16so we still have
08:17massive numbers
08:18of troops here
08:19and massive numbers
08:19of military armaments
08:21and supplies
08:22there's nothing wrong
08:23with the United States
08:24cutting back on that
08:25and Europe taking
08:26a more assertive role
08:27in its own defense
08:28I think that's something
08:29we want
08:29and I believe it's something
08:31that the Europeans
08:31now realize
08:32and that the Europeans want
08:33I think that some
08:34of the fears
08:35from the European capitals
08:36is that it's happening
08:37at a time
08:38when the United States
08:39particularly President Trump
08:40is extremely disappointed
08:41he's made that very clear
08:42to Mark Rutte
08:43and so on
08:43and to the Europeans
08:44themselves
08:44about their lack
08:46of support
08:47in the aftermath
08:48of the U.S.
08:49and Israeli strikes
08:50on the Iran
08:51in relation to the Strait
08:52of Armuts
08:52has that situation
08:54subsided for Donald Trump?
08:56I don't know
08:57that it's subsided
08:58I mean I know
08:58he's very disappointed
08:59we have a situation
09:01where the President
09:04at great political risk
09:05I mean nobody
09:06you know his party
09:07was not
09:07the MAGA movement
09:09is not supportive
09:10of foreign wars
09:11the Democrats
09:12were going to oppose him
09:13no matter what he did
09:14so without really
09:15any political advantage
09:17he assessed the situation
09:19saw the development
09:20of the missiles
09:21and the drones
09:22in Iran
09:23and they're continuing
09:24to try and get access
09:26to a nuclear weapon
09:27they're having that
09:28visible nuclear material
09:30where they could create
09:3110 or 11 bombs
09:32and said
09:33rather than passing
09:34the kicking the can
09:35down the road
09:36or passing the buck
09:36whichever metaphor
09:37you want to use
09:38he decided that it was
09:39important that he act
09:40despite the fact
09:41that it wouldn't be
09:42to his political advantage
09:43because it was
09:44the right thing to do
09:45we have bases in Europe
09:47that we have funded
09:49and supported
09:49for decades
09:51we have countries
09:52that we've rescued
09:53in war
09:53and we've been
09:54a very reliable ally to
09:56when they
09:57when they won't even
09:58let us fly over
09:59their country
09:59or use our bases
10:01in their countries
10:01you're going to find
10:02the United States
10:03and particularly
10:03President Trump
10:04will be very upset
10:05and I don't know
10:06when that subsides
10:09but hopefully
10:10it will over time
10:10but I don't know
10:11if it has yet
10:12Do you think that
10:12this sort of reaction
10:13then at NATO
10:14is part of that
10:15saying look
10:15you didn't come
10:16to our aid
10:16so therefore
10:17we won't be there
10:17for you in times
10:18of need
10:19and that's why
10:19we're removing
10:20capabilities
10:21I don't think
10:22anybody said that
10:22what I've heard
10:23Secretary Rubio say
10:24is look
10:25we're supportive
10:26of NATO
10:26but the reason
10:27that we have
10:27an alliance
10:28is so that we
10:28defend each other
10:29and work together
10:30and if that's not
10:31how the alliance
10:32is going to work
10:32then we need
10:33to reassess it
10:34nobody
10:34I don't think
10:35anybody said
10:35we're pulling out
10:36of NATO
10:36we're going
10:37to pull out
10:37of NATO
10:38What about
10:39the Europeans
10:40perspective
10:40when they say
10:41NATO is a
10:41defensive organization
10:42this was an
10:43offensive war
10:45outside the territory
10:46of NATO
10:47so therefore
10:47the obligation
10:48wasn't for us
10:49particularly
10:49when we weren't
10:50consulted
10:50I think that's
10:52a little too
10:53technical
10:53and a little
10:54too ignoring
10:55of reality
10:55the Iranians
10:56have been at war
10:57with at least
10:57the United States
10:58and Israel
10:59for 47 years
11:00they've been
11:01killing people
11:02they've got
11:02these groups
11:03like Hamas
11:04and Hezbollah
11:06that go out
11:07and attack
11:07the US forces
11:09and Israeli forces
11:10they've now
11:11bombed Cyprus
11:12they tried to bomb
11:13they sent a missile
11:14down to the island
11:16off of India
11:17Diego
11:18I can't remember
11:18what the name
11:19of it is
11:19but the island
11:20that the British
11:20control off
11:21the coast
11:21Diego Garcia
11:23so I think
11:24that may be
11:26a technical
11:26explanation
11:27that tries
11:28to get them
11:29off the hook
11:29for something
11:30they maybe
11:30should have done
11:31nobody was asking
11:32them to send troops
11:33all we wanted
11:34to do was fly over
11:35fly over the countries
11:36we defended
11:37and use the air bases
11:39or the military bases
11:41that we maintain
11:41in those countries
11:42so if you're not
11:43willing to do that
11:44what are you willing
11:45to do
11:45so it was a big mistake
11:46for a small ask
11:47is that what you're saying
11:47I would say
11:48that was a very good summary
11:51Ambassador Andrew Pudson
11:52thank you very much
11:53for joining us
11:54on 12 Minutes
11:54at URO News
11:55thank you
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